On this week's episode of the Financial Planning Podcast, Amit Dogra explains why he loves working with advisory teams that are "up to something."
Dogra, president and chief operating officer of Portland, Oregon-based RIA service platform tru Independence, joins the podcast this week to explain what his team really means when they push the idea of "experience as a service."
With more than 20 years of industry experience to pull from, Dogra said the drumbeat from advisors who need support that "just works" is growing louder as time goes on, and for good reason.
Financial professionals are expected to do more than ever these days, and they have an overwhelming number of options when it comes to selecting the right tools for the job, Dogra said.
But with the increasing demands comes less time for busy advisors to make sense of all the choices at their disposal.
"If you think about it as an advisor, we're asking them to tend to their clients and then also figure out this tech world and navigate it," Dogra said. "We're asking them to boil the ocean. They cannot do that on their own. And most of them don't want to do that on their own."
During his conversation with FP Podcast host and lead editorial producer Justin L. Mack, Dogra talks about how is team is working to lighten the load for advisors; why many of the so-called integrated tech experiences on the market don't pass muster; and how the lowercase "T" that leads the way for tru Independence is directly tied to the way they approach the business.
Listen to the new episode — as well as to all future and past episodes — by subscribing to the FP Podcast on
Transcript
Justin L. Mack (00:03):
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening. Welcome to the Financial Planning Podcast. I'm your host, Justin L. Mack, wealthtech editor with Financial Planning, and it is my pleasure to introduce this week's guest, Amit Dogra, president and COO of tru Independence. Amit, thank you so much for joining us on the show this week.
Amit Dogra (00:21):
Thanks for having me, Justin. The pleasure is all mine.
Justin L. Mack (00:23):
Absolutely. Now Amit brings to this week's pod nearly 25 years of industry experience. As one of the leaders at tru Independence, he is focused on how to better serve the tru Independence community of advisors while also driving the growth and profitability of the firm. Prior to joining tru, he was the CXO for Sanctuary Wealth, responsible for the overall experience delivered by Sanctuary through its products, investments, services and technology for its advisors. He also helped grow Sanctuary from $2 billion to $15 billion in AUM. Other stops on his journey include being CEO of Third Seven Advisors, managing director for Hightower and holding leadership roles at the North Highland Company, Greystone, BNY Mellon, Brinker Capital, SEI Investments. Look, the guy stays busy. And today, well, don't call him Jimi Hendrix, but we're going to be talking all about experience, namely the concept of experience as a service, what that means to Amit's team at tru and how it ties into a recent product launch.
(01:15)
We'll also get into some of the current trends that get him going right now and other tasks he plans to tackle for the rest of 2023. But first, Amit, you've got to pay the first-timer toll. Now, we've had a chance to connect before, and I even had a chance to put you on video not that long ago when
Amit Dogra (01:46):
Thanks, Justin, for all the kind words and that wonderful introduction. Going all the way back to college. One of those things that really jumped out at me, I started as a computer science major and was sitting in the classroom one day looking out at the birds chirping and the sun shining. I said, geez, I don't know if I want to sit behind a computer all day. I'll tell you this, if I had known what the computer science world was going to look like now and that it is more business oriented than it had ever been, maybe I wouldn't have made that choice. But I knew I wanted to be closer to the financial services, to the wealth creation story. And so I made that decision early on and started my career at SEI Investments, and it's been downhill ever since. <laughs>
Justin L. Mack (02:33):
Alright. Well, very cool to see you make that transition. And again, I always love hearing how people ended up here because one thing I find over and over again, and I'm sure you've seen the same, is that there's no one right way to get here. There's no one certain skill set or kind of person you have to be to not only be a part of this industry, but to see success in it. And as we've given the rundown, you've seen plenty of success in financial services despite having a different background. So let's get into the news at hand. We're talking all about experience, something we talk a whole lot about and something we had a chance to recently cover. Your progression of delivering experience to your customers, to clients, to this industry through the launch of
Amit Dogra (03:33):
Yeah, Justin, I wish we could take credit for it here by ourselves, but it's more about listening to our advisors and reading the tea leaves and listening to what a lot of pundits in our industry are talking about. Whether it's fintech firms that came out focused on performance reporting or some sort of risk metric. Everyone is saying that they're trying to deliver more. And not only are they acquiring, but they're looking at stitching it all together. And it doesn't matter what talking heads that you speak about, that's sort of the holy grail on the tech side, right? Stitching it all together, making it one piece as opposed to a patchwork or somewhat aligned next to each other. And that is the result of advisor frustration and desire and demand. Because when they work with their clients, they're trying to deliver a unique experience to their clients that's homogeneous in nature and not in a bad way. But that is consistent. Something that they can count on and it's something that's repeatable. And that's not bad because at least our clients come to know what to expect.
(04:40)
Unfortunately, with some of the fintech out there in the space, what has become expected is the unexpected, and that has been counted on. And I think part of that is just because of how quickly things move, but this industry has also, from a fintech perspective, catapulted itself into being an innovator. And so I have a lot of respect for those folks in this space because they are pushing us forward. Obviously if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't have survived COVID as an industry. So I have nothing but respect and pay tribute to them for that. But it is the advisors who reach out and say, there has to be a better experience. Isn't there a better way for me to not have to alt-tab between technology? And while I was sold this concept of integrated, it's at best single sign-on.
(05:30)
And that's not really integrated technology, it's not single source code. Again, if you have to switch between screens or tab between screens, you do not have integrated technology. If you have to launch apps, you do not have integrated technology. And when you listen to the pundits and you listen to the advisors, what they wanted was something that was easier to use. In fact, it's a little bit like a joke. It's kind of like fashion trends. It's cyclical, right? We're talking about pegged jeans and high waist jeans. That was the '70s and '80s trends. In technology, we're reverting back, too. Because if you think back to it, the wirehouses launched this sort of embedded single source code technology. The problem was they didn't evolve it. The problem was they didn't listen to advisors. And the problem was it was driven towards the lowest common denominator as a way to systematize as opposed to a way to advance and evolve businesses.
(06:30)
So we're moving back to that and you're hearing in all the talking heads at the largest fintech firms (they're) talking about integrating what they have or expanding what they have or creating single source show technology. So at tru, when we all got together and listened to our advisors, we knew that this wasn't something that was a tru thing. It was an industry thing that the industry was marching towards from two different ends. One from the advisor side, and the other from a provider standpoint. And when you looked at it collectively, it was around three pieces. One was definitely fintech, and that's an important piece. But that wasn't the only piece. It was human capital as well. Having that great service and delivering service excellence is a huge piece of it. Sometimes we can have too big to fail, but you can also have too big to service.
(07:19)
And that is something that was becoming unfortunately felt, and that was through fintech firms and things because you start with an idea and a concept, and then people latch onto it and you grow. And you grow exponentially. So now your service lacks your delivery. So having great service and fintech were two components. And then the final piece was the behavioral finance piece. Look, I love
Justin L. Mack (08:44):
Something else I want to hear more from you on before we talk about some other news you guys are making, because like I said, you guys keep us busy at FP. Not only the new offering, but some new team members as well. But something that sticks out to me when you explain that process of working with advisors, addressing their frustrations and those frustrations likely driven by the frustration they're hearing from clients who also want that top tier experience. It's an interesting balancing act because, obviously a reporter here at FP looking at wealthtech, I'm always interested in what that balancing act is and kind of how it differs in our industry to maybe other tech-focused industries where I think it's distributor and client. There's two seats on the teeter-totter. You're providing the service, here's my customer, let's get the balance so everyone's happy. But in our industry, it's providing a service to advisors who are going to then provide a service to their clients.
(09:33)
There's a third seat on that teeter-totter. There's not room for everyone to sit, but I hear about you working with advisors to make sure that you're delivering solutions that truly meet those needs. What's that process been like, say, over the past year or so? I'm always interested in the back and forth between advisors. How has that evolved? Are advisors more vocal than maybe they have been in past years about what they want and what they need? And how do client needs play into that? What is that experience like, at least for the team at tru?
Amit Dogra (10:03):
Yeah. So it actually goes back to our founder and CEO Craig Stuvland. If you look at the tru logo, it's a lowercase "T." And people always ask, is that intentional? And the answer was an emphatical, yes. If you looked at some of the competitors and their names, it was their names were in the forefront, and the advisors were secondary. When Craig set out to build tru, he wanted it to be about you, the advisor. So it's a lowercase "T" and an uppercase "I" because it's about your independence. It's not about tru and what we do. And that's why we're a service excellence company. We don't look at ourselves as a business development company. We look at ourselves as a service delivery, service excellence company, and we invite everyone else to join in that crusade as we move forward. But in the past probably a year and a half or so, Justin, the drumbeat has absolutely grown louder.
(10:59)
And if you think about it, it's about demanding better service and service excellence, and for this understanding of experience as a service to be what advisors want. And really, the reason is really pretty obvious. If you think about the flooding of technology firms that have come into this space, or in some ways even the consolidation of technology that's in this space … there's always new technology popping up, there's always consolidation going on. And so what we're talking about is this. If you think about it as an advisor, we're asking them to tend to their clients and then also figure out this tech world and navigate it. We're asking them to boil the ocean. They cannot do that on their own. And most of them don't want to do that on their own.
(11:49)
They want a provider, they want a partner who's helping them navigate, curate and deliver. The last piece is the most important now because there's a lot to navigate and curate, but what are you delivering? Are you delivering service excellence? Are you delivering execution? And the answer is no. And I think what we're finding is, we're finding this inflection point in the industry where advisors are saying, enough. I get it. I got it. There's great technology out there, but you're not making it easier by saying you're the next great thing. In a lot of ways, it's analogous to chasing performance. Nobody wants to chase the hot dot. No one wants to chase the hot tech company. You want it all to be balanced. And just like the advisors deliver asset allocation for a balanced overall total portfolio, advisors are looking for technology, and overall, it's a total experience that's balanced by behavioral finance, fintech and human capital, which is what they want to be able to deliver to their clients. So I think if we go back, I don't know the numbers, but you'll see a natural graduation in the number of tech firms and solutions, et cetera, et cetera, that have just hit the button on or have reached the tipping point, if you will. Advisors are saying, I want more from a business partner and we've just seen it all and we're watching and we're paying attention. We don't think we're special. We've seen it and we're inviting the entire industry to join us on this movement.
Justin L. Mack (13:17):
Right on. And speaking of inviting the industry in and bringing new members into the tru family, you also had some news in that regard, too. Tell us about who's new, what's hot, what else is going on at tru that you're excited about? At least for the first half of 2023.
Amit Dogra (13:36):
Yeah, we're excited about the teams that have joined and the teams that continue to join. We added
(14:25)
I'm ready for that next stage. We think that's great and we support that movement because it's part of the business life cycle or the business journey. That's an important piece, but that's not who we're targeting. We're targeting advisors who are up to something. Who have that entrepreneurial spirit and are on that growth curve and trajectory. It doesn't mean they're not thinking about that off in the sunset, but that's it. It's the sunset. It's a north star and it's what they're working towards, and they still have that mindset. Folks like Pam Perskie, a great example in Seven Mile Advisory. We're really excited in the next coming days to announce two other teams that'll be joining us. That's a little teaser for you there. We also will have a few other teams join us towards the end of the summer, and then the fall looks just as promising.
(15:19)
So we're super excited because the one thing that ties all of them together is, as I said, they're all up to something. But then the second one is that when they've heard this story about tru and our commitment to experience as a service, they've all said the same thing. That's different. That's unique. You don't sound like the other people we're talking to. That's how we think of our clients. Tell us more. And that's the conversations that we really are proud about having because it's reflecting the interest in tru. It's already been the greatest year in company history in regards to interest, but now it'll be the greatest year in the number of teams that we onboard and the number of assets under management. So we couldn't be more excited.
Justin L. Mack (16:06):
Definitely. And you can hear the excitement, and I love to hear that, too. I am very much someone who is into saying, hey, what's the different way we can do something? Maybe it's a little unorthodox, but then it starts to make sense when you get in motion and identify what works. And I'm always accused of being up to something, so it's cool to see that there is a home for folks who are up to something in this industry.
And with that, we're actually going to take a quick break and enjoy a word from our sponsors, but when we return, we'll have more with Amit Dogra, president and COO of tru Independence. Stay locked. We'll be right back after this break.
And welcome back to the Financial Planning podcast. I'm your host, Justin Mack, and we're diving back into our conversation this week with Amit Dogra, president and COO of tru Independence.
(16:48)
Now, in the first half we talked a lot about balance, which is a word that I think will stick out for a lot of people. Especially now when there's increasing client demands and increasing desire to do more as an advisor. The hats that advisors wear are changing and piling up by the minute. So there is a desire to do more and, like you said, those advisors who are up to something … wanting to be able to service them and provide them some help. So I'm always interested because I know you're someone who keeps an ear to the streets and an eye on what's happening. Talk to me about some of the current trends that are capturing your interest right now. What kind of support are advisors hungry for in the current environment?
(17:28)
And something else I would love to have you talk about that you already touched on earlier is a big one. That consistent experience. Something that doesn't feel divergent from the tech side stands out to me because man, if I have to go to another app from my app as a user, as someone who's focused on my workflow, nothing turns me off more. If I'm working on something and I click a link and they say, you're being redirected elsewhere, I'm closing the app and I'm redirecting my business elsewhere. Because that just breaks your entire flow. So I know that's a big one, but what other trends are you really focused on, and how are you dispatching that service to advisors?
Amit Dogra (18:01):
Yeah, you just actually hit on something that we're really passionate about here at tru. Our best ideas … they're not ours at all. They are advisor ideas. We really, really love to get that feedback and nothing makes us happier than the execution of it because we know it's going to be utilized. And so workflow's a big one. I'll reference our founder, our CEO Craig again, because we've talked a lot about this. How do we continue to, as we grow and grow with people, grow with advisory teams, grow in other assets under management, how do we continue to grow on that side? So we're paying a lot of attention, and Craig is spearheading the effort around workflow efficiency, business efficiency, and delivering that experience efficiency. So training and development's a huge piece of what we're doing internally and we're excited about that. And you're going to hear a lot more about that from how that's going to impact advisors in the coming months.
(18:55)
But it's been a focus of ours and Craig's in particular as we go, and we've grown into that next phase. So we're super excited about that. And it's a funny thing to talk about, Justin, because sometimes the best compliment about service is people don't say anything, right? Because you just expect it to work. But people want to know when it doesn't work and why it doesn't work. And so we want to be proactive and talk about it because we're super committed to it, and we also think it'll enhance that experience, and we want our advisors to know what we're doing and what we're up to from that side. So that's number one. Then number two, and it's kind of interesting again in regards to being up to something, we're seeing advisors have more interest in knowing what other advisors are up to and what that path to success looks like.
(19:47)
So we've been really focused on business consulting and what's referred to as practice management in our industry, because that's my background. That's my hallmark. And we have looked at it and we've had these great conversations, and in fact, beside experience as a service and the service excellence we're delivering, probably the second biggest race in teams are talking to us because when they ask us about questions about, well, tell us what you've seen, our entire management team has spent its entire career in independence starting from Craig, Stu and the rest of the team all the way down. So we're not learning independence as we build a firm. We've lived it our entire lives. We understand it and we've seen what it looks like at other firms.
(20:38)
And we are able to share that experience. I can say confidently that the ability to see those conversations has been the reason why we've won the handful of teams this year, and that we're going to win more teams as we go forward. It's the emphasis on business consulting. Things like how do you go ahead and turn down that check that you're going to get for leaving where you are because you want independence. Because the allure of money's real, right? But how is it that you can bypass that check and still have your independence? See it another way? How do you have your cake and eat it, too? Well, we worked with several different teams and said, look, let's talk about what that looks like. And usually there's a lead advisor or a founding advisor who's looking for that money to monetize his life's work, right?
(21:27)
We've heard that conversation regularly, but still, what we were able to do with several firms is to create the monetization strategy for that advisor through the general economics of what they were going to get from being in independent, make sure everybody got a raise, and they didn't have to have the golden handcuffs of being tied to a firm because they took a check. So the founder gets his money, he gets his life's work monetization over several years. Everybody on the team who's a partner gets more money in their pocket, and you get the independence and the freedom of controlling your business. That sort of creative solution where they said, no one's talking to us about that, was really, really kind of insightful and impactful. We talked about other things. A lot of people have marketing firms and things around the things that matter to them from a marketing perspective, but it's also different depending on where you're coming from.
(22:26)
There's a lot of disparate technology out there. There's a lot (questions about) how do I handle digital marketing? How do I handle social media? How do I handle these things and these new technology solutions, and what should I be focused on? So having those conversations beyond just talking about different solutions and technology is also part of business consulting. And then finally the piece is around helping that lead advisor graduate from being an advisor to a business owner. To a CEO. That's an escalation, right? And yeah, there's a lot of people in firms who have courses you can attend and stuff like that, but frankly though, that advisor, that business owner and that CEO doesn't have the time or effort or energy to do that.
(23:22)
So talk to me about how I'm going to do that. Look, I got it. I can go to this university's online school where I spend two weeks in an expensive, intensive course, but just share with me some best practices to get me going and tell me that's worth my time. Because we've helped advisors go from $600 million to $3 billion, or $200 million to $2 billion, et cetera, et cetera. Our experiences in having those conversations, we can tell them where the bodies are buried. We can talk to 'em about gearing ratios, we can talk to them about what their business looks like and how you have to actually take on less to get more. And how do you structure business units and how do you create mentoring and how do you create career passing? How do you create or take someone who's an associate today and turn 'em into a partner, what's that path look like? How do I do that? That's a really important conversation that they don't want to necessarily have to pay someone else to do. They just want to know, and they want to know that they can count on us to do it. So it's that combination of that experience, that combination of focus, that combination of delivering tangible executions. That's really what we're seeing in the industry and really what advisors are looking for.
Justin L. Mack (24:35):
For sure. And Amit, one thing I wanted to ask you is what tru has on deck for the second half of the year. You guys are up to something. You've got a lot more news coming out. I won't ask you to show your entire hand here on the show, and I'll be busting up embargoes that aren't even in place yet <laughs> So I'm going to chill on that. But one question I do have for you is on a personal note, not just your team, but you. Are there any goals that you personally want to accomplish for the rest of the year or maybe going into the new year? Because again, I know how much you guys work to be in service of advisors, but what are you looking to accomplish? Any personal growth you want to achieve, things you want to do that you haven't done yet, or opportunities that are now opening up that you said, you know what, I can go after this. What's new with you in 2023?
Amit Dogra (25:21):
Yeah, thanks for the question. I think personally for the second half of the year, we've been working so hard to deliver experience as a service. For me, it's the combination of understanding service excellence, not only for the business, but for the family as well. So there's an element of getting a little balance back that's important to me, but that's really where I'm kind of focused, at least with the summer, kind of right here, falling in front of us, is just spending, spending more time with the family and those who matter to me to find that balance. Because what I find is when I do, it just always supercharges me. That connective tissue is really sort of important. And then on the personal growth side is as we grow and as we move fast is the balance between speed to market and execution.
(26:20)
We don't want to let perfection get in the way of being good enough, but we want to make sure that we're also focused on the right things. We have no problems talking about what we're up to because we don't believe it's what we're up to. It's how we execute on it, and that our execution excellence is part of our differentiation. So more focused on being able to look at some diversified things on the alternative investment side. The other thing that we're super excited about and focused on is our national conference, Canvas. It's going to be taking place in October, 18th to the 20th. That's an invite for you, Justin, to come. Love to have you do your podcast right there from our conference.
Justin L. Mack (27:00):
Alright, hey, I'll tell the higher ups at FP, break out the travel budget. <laughs>
Amit Dogra (27:07):
Phoenix in October is a great place to be. So we're looking forward to that because we did our inaugural event last year and while it was a very intimate group of advisors who were there, the feedback was profound and it led us on this path, the experience of the service. So I'm excited about what I don't know that I don't know, and I think that's one of the things that I'm focused on. Maintaining that curious mindset, right? Ask questions. Because the minute we think we've got this figured out, we're stale, right? So focusing on that curious mindset is important to us. Making sure we're working with our advisor partners on creating an agenda that reflects the things that matter to them. Getting our strategic partners — we're not looking for vendors, we're looking for our strategic partners to be there and support us — is important to us because when getting our advisors together, we all get better.
(27:57)
And that's what we're focused on, and that's what I'm focused on personally and professionally. It's getting better. And this is a great opportunity for that. And then also we'll be looking to launch our Philadelphia office in a meaningful way the second half of the year. So there's a little more teaser there. We are hiring like crazy and getting to announce some of those folks is important. So stopping to smell the roses, executing on that, and then continuously learning. Those are the things I'll be focused on the rest of this year.
Justin L. Mack (28:33):
Very, very cool. And as we reach the end of the podcast here, we talked a lot about business. We're going to keep it personal and transition into something that has become customary here on the Financial Planning Podcast, which is ending with some good vibes. And Amit, we talked a lot about the work you're already doing, the new offerings you've rolled out just in recent months, what you have on deck both personally and professionally for 2023. But I like to always ask when we close things out, what do you love most about your job, the work that you do, the work that you have done, all the experiences that you've had. What do you love most? What keeps you coming back?
Amit Dogra (29:12):
Yeah, it might sound a little hokey, but it's the people. I mean, I love the advisor stories, the advisor story. I love asking advisors how they got into this business. I'm like, don't tell me how long you've been in the business. That's a number. Tell me how you got in the business, why you got in the business, why you stay in the business. I've heard great stories about people moonlighting as advisors while driving a taxi, or advisors who were selling encyclopedias door to door as they tried to build their advisory experience. I'm dating myself with that comment, Justin, but understanding that this business is a grind to get going, but it's one of the most rewarding ones when you can get there. So I love the people who are advisors who make up our business. And then from a corporate perspective, it's the people that we bring into the business. Seeing the twinkle in their eye, the desire to learn more, to make an impact with the young people who are joining this business.
(30:10)
And it's not even the young people, it's the contemporaries. They see something unique about tru, and they want to be here, and they want to be a part of something. So it's the energy that the people bring, whether it's advisors or contemporaries or young people. It's people here at tru that make the difference. We really appreciate each other as we bring on new people. We call 'em "tru believers." And what we do, we've taken the approach that as we're growing, we need to hire in advance of our growth because it provides a better experience, not only for our advisors. That's what everyone thinks. You hire in advance for your advisors. That's only half the equation, Justin. The other half is you're hiring in advance for the people who are here today, right? Because nobody wants to be burnt out. Nobody wants to be overworked. So we want to make sure that it should feel like you're stretched, but you shouldn't feel like you're taxed.
(31:07)
And that's the difference, right? You want people to be like, okay, I've got a lot to do. Because that's good, but you don't want to feel like they're overwhelmed or taxed by it, nor do we want our advisors to feel like our service is lacking. So by hiring ahead of that, we're pretty excited. And what that means is more people, so new people, great people, great people on the team, great advisors. That's what keeps them coming back, is you see people who are interesting and up to something and they're doing good stuff, and that's fun. You feel like you're making an impact. And even if it's in a small way, it's a meaningful way and that matters. And that's what keeps me coming back.
Justin L. Mack (31:45):
Well, good vibes don't get much better than that. So I think that is a perfect place to end this week's edition of the Financial Planning Podcast and give some of our younger listeners an opportunity to Google what an encyclopedia is so they can really see how hard that story hits. But Amit, I want to thank you again for taking the time, sharing your time and your energy with us this week on the Financial Planning Podcast. Thanks so much for stopping by, man.
Amit Dogra (32:07):
Thanks for having me, Justin.
Justin L. Mack (32:09):
Absolutely. And I want to thank everyone for listening to the Financial Planning Podcast. This episode was produced by Arizent with audio production by Kevin Parise. Special thanks again to our guest, Amit Dogra, president and COO of tru Independence. Rate us, review us and subscribe to all of our content at