- The pros and cons of having a niche
- The business of expertise (solving a unique set of problems for a specific type of person)
- Creating an ideal client avatar and tailoring your practice to that demographic
Tobias Salinger (00:07):
Welcome back everyone. Hope everyone enjoyed lunch. Thank you so much for being here with us today at the Financial Planning Invest Conference. My name is Tobias Salinger. I'm the chief Correspondent at Financial Planning, and right now we're going to be talking about building a niche advisory firm from the ground up. We've got a couple of amazing guests with us right now. Just to my left, Samuel Deane, The President and CEO of Deane Wealth Management. And to his left we have Anand Sekhar, the VP of Practice management in consulting with Fidelity Investments. To jump into this, I'm going to ask Samuel to tell us a little bit about your advisory practice. What is the niche of your practice and how did you identify it?
Samuel Deane (01:04):
Yeah, thanks for having me, Toby. So when I initially considered venturing out and starting my own firm, I was a young MBA graduate. I didn't have much years in the wealth management industry, but when I was interviewing at different firms, I realized most of the firms are pretty much the same. They had the same business models, they serve the same people, and I knew that I had to sort of build something that differentiated me from other people. Being in the wealth management industry, I'm 31 years old, I'm a black man, I am usually, folks are usually apprehensive about letting me in the room and me being at the table. And so being the only black person in the room, being the youngest person in the room, many of times I knew that I couldn't afford to go out on my own and be a generalist. And so for me, I knew that I had to specialize in something. And fortunately enough, when I met my wife, she was pivoting into technology. And so that gave me, we went to a couple of conferences. She got some offers from Netflix and Spotify and those sorts of things. And that gave me a lot of insight into the average person in tech, you know, have equity compensation, you have salary compensation, and so on and so forth. And I knew that the majority of my peers, we weren't given financial education. They don't know what a 401K is or how do you even work a 401k? I knew that there must be a decent amount of people out there that were having pain points around equity comp that didn't even know what it was, didn't know that they could negotiate more salary or more equity and so on and so forth. And so for me, that was what I chose to lean in on and to be an expert in my space, I feel as though being in the business of expertise, clients are usually willing to pay you a premium to solve their complex pain points. And for me that that was all I needed to know from a value add perspective. And so I launched my firm in 2018. It's now actually this June. This month will make five years of me running my own firm. And it's been a blast. I'd love to say that I knew from day one that I wanted to focus on this specific demographic, but that wouldn't be the truth. I think for me, finding my niche, and I was going to say it's a niche when you're looking, it's a niche when you find it, but finding my nicheReally refined over time. When I first launched my firm, I told myself I'm going to build a wealth management firm for millennials. Henry's high earning, not rich yet because I myself am a millennial. As I dived deeper into this space and started learning more about millennials in general, I found it very hard to create content that spoke to any one person. A millennial is anyone from like 20 sevens who are about 40 or so, and you're in a completely different phase of life within that timeframe. And so it was very difficult for me to position my messaging to really land with the folks that I wanted to land with. And so once realizing that, I said, okay, let me refine a little bit further. And instead of just focusing on high earning millennials, let me focus on millennials and tech. And to be quite honest, I started positioning myself as a financial planner for tech employees before I even had any tech client I might've had one tech client who was a good friend of mine that was an account manager making like 50K at Yelp. And that was my only tech client. As I positioned myself to be that and putting out content and doing some things over the course of the years ended up me. I ended up building my reputation as that advisor for folks in tech, but it went from millennials to millennials in tech. I've refined that even further and now focus on tech employees at pre IPO companies, founders, early employees and so on and so forth. And so I think for those folks who are interested in building a niche or niche rather, it's put so much pressure on yourself to figure that out from day one. Just follow your hunch and it'll come over time if you're doing the work. And in terms of figuring out what that niche looked like, my wife again I mentioned she is in technology and she was a UX user experience designer. And so I took some of those principles and applied it to my firm and said, okay, what does my ideal client look like? I literally came up with pictures, names, cities, salaries, goals, pain points, behavior ways that I can serve this ideal person and went out and built my firm to serve that one specific ideal person. And from there it kind of just took off.
Tobias Salinger (05:52):
Anand as you heard Samuel talking about his process, your team at Fidelity, you work with thousands of registered investment advisory firms, trillions of dollars in assets under custody. What stands out to you about that process that Samuel just laid out and what are some of the other niches that you've heard about advisors cultivating in their practices?
Anand Sekhar (06:17):
So one of the things that we talk about is how can an advisor or a firm have what we term as a firm story? And we think about four questions that I think every advisor needs to be able to answer in order to create that firm story. The first is, why do you get excited about doing what you do every day? So what I heard from Sam, quite effectively is that he had a personal connection to this because of his wife. And so the reason for it is saw the parallels between what his wife struggled with and an opportunity to serve a marketplace really effectively. So I think why is the first question, why are you doing this? The second is who, and I think it's really important to have a really compelling and unique and targeted, which obviously clearly Sam, it stood out obviously very clearly. So then the third is, what are you doing that the advisor down the street is not doing and or can deliver uniquely? And then the fourth is how are you going to then differentiate? So I think it was really clear, obviously as Sam just articulated, he answered those four questions beautifully. I think it's rare though. I look at a lot of websites out there and you could literally replace the logos on 'em and they would, you could change the theme of the firm and that would be it. Everything else is the same. I think what you just articulated is obviously very unique, compelling, and differentiated. I think what started for me haven't worked with a lot. I think the firms that I've seen that I've done something similar in other spaces, dentists, is one that I think is really unique. I think compelling and I'll give you reasons for why is that a lot of times dentists, in addition to the challenges that you articulated unique from an RCO, they have really specific challenges. A lot of 'em are aging and are trying to worry about succession planning right now. That's probably the biggest thing that they're worried about. And then you have younger ones that are dealing with student debt and trying to get into the business of buying out these older folks. So you've got both sides of the equation. They're actually very similar to advisors, honestly. There's a lot of parallels. And then the other piece that was interesting is one firm that I worked with had an amazing observation when covid happened, think back March of 2020. One of the riskiest professions that we could have ever imagined would be being a dentist. They went, no masks, right? You're looking at somebody's mouth with no masks, they have no mask on. They had no idea how to do emergency surgery back in April of 2020. And so the very first thing that this advisor realized is I need to help educate advisors on how to think about personal protective equipment and ventilation. So what do they do? They put on a web webinar on that topic they hired experts bought in our webinar that was relevant for that audience. And then what was the second issue that dentists were facing back in 2020? Cashflow. They had no patients, no clients in essence coming in who wanted to go see their dentist. Nobody, none of us wanted to see anybody at that moment. That's why we ordered things from Amazon or from our grocery store delivered to us. So what did they do? They held a webinar with a local bank to help them navigate the fun process of getting a PPP loan relevant. You cannot be relevant unless your target market. And that's what this advisor Phil Clark OmniSTAR Financial did is, and you look at his website now and he is aspiring to not just be the advisor to their personal life, but to their business as well, which I think has been transformative for him.
Tobias Salinger (09:46):
And I want to throw this out to both of you and we'll start with you this time. First, Anand, what are some of the main advantages of building these niche practices?
Anand Sekhar (09:59):
So Fidelity back in 2017 rolled out something called moving up the value stack, the advice value stack. And in this piece of thought leadership, we had read an article in Harvard Business Review titled The Elements of Value. And then this article, Bain, the consulting firm, basically talked about a Maslow's hierarchy of need. And if you think about it, at the base of the pyramid is form and function and it's table stakes in our industry. Money management, you all are expected as financial advisors, as an industry, we're expected to provide the money management, which is including budgeting, debt, cashflow, investments, all of that, money management. The second layer is all about achieving goals, which is all about planning. The third layer is peace of mind, which is things like cybersecurity also, are you talking to your clients about the four important documents they should have for end of life wishes?And then the fourth layer, the top of the layer is are you having conversations that are leaving a legacy for those families you work with? And that's passing values, not valuables. And what I find is that if you know your clients really well in a niche kind of space, you have the ability to get to the top at a much faster rate because you're likely working on things that are not at the base of the pyramid. You're likely automating a lot of the stuff at the bottom of the pyramid. And candidly, AI is going to automate a lot of that and you're going to need to be differentiated at the top. And I don't think you can get there unless you really know your target market to deliver effective solutions.
Tobias Salinger (11:26):
Samuel.
Samuel Deane (11:26):
That was excellent. So I think there's two things that stand out to me, especially from my experience is being perceived as an expert in a particular space and having that expertise drive content. And those two things, if I had to boil it down to two things that was I used to grow my firm to where it is now, it would be those two things. But first I want to talk about differentiation a little bit because I have had situations where a prospect has came to me and says, Hey, I'm not the only financial planner that works with tech employees at all. It's actually been quite a few firms that have sprouted up that focuses on tech employees. And when I have a prospect ask me like, Hey, how are you different than this firm or the other firm? You can't say, Hey, I focus on equity comp. I'm a specialist in equity. That doesn't really translate well. And so for me, and I kind of took this a page from Warren Buffett's book when he was asked as similar question was, I am the differentiator me as a person, Samuel Dean, because yes, you can go out and find another advisor that focuses on equity comp, that focuses on RSUs tax planning and those sorts of things, but you're not going to get another Samuel Dean. There's no other person or advisor out there that has my character and my personality. So even if you decide to pick a niche that's not necessarily new like doctors or dentists, that doesn't mean that you can't build a successful firm. So I just want to say that, but when it comes to the advantages of having a niche, it's very simple. I only need to know the things that affect my clients. And if all of my clients have similar pain points, that's the only thing that I need to know. The secure Act passed maybe a couple months ago. I could probably tell you one thing in that bill, which was like the 529 to Roth IRA rollover stuff, everything else, I have no idea what's in that bill because most of it is retirement stuff. And my clients, my oldest client is maybe about 43, maybe anywhere from my clients are usually around 30 to 43. And so that eliminates an entire subject that I don't have to go and read through pages or read through white papers and understand what's going on because it doesn't apply to my clients. And so I only need to know a lot about a little. And for me, that's building a really efficient and effective firm. And that also translates to how I've grown my firm over the years. I don't have the personality of a traditional financial advisor that will go out and cold call or do cold outreach or any of that stuff, quite frankly because I'm an entrepreneur that still doesn't like getting rejected. And so my way of growing my firm was content. I created a blog. I created a newsletter. I used LinkedIn, I used Twitter, and I put my brain on the internet. And because I have an expertise, I only write about those things. You go on my website, you won't find any articles about Roth IRAs or retirement planning or budgeting or any of that stuff. Every last one of my articles and things that I talk about on social media relates back to equity comp and tax planning. And so number one, it helps me build a track record. It helps me build a reputation around if you have a question on equity comp, this is the guy you want to go to. And quite frankly, I've had, aside from content, the majority of my referrals that have come through have been from other financial advisors. Either they don't work with folks in tech or they do work with folks in tech and they're backed up with a lot of volume or the clients don't meet their minimums, and so they refer them to me. And so positioning yourself as an expert can, you can reap the rewards in many different ways. But going back to content, I put my brain on the internet and if a doctor reads my blogs, they will probably not reach out to me. But if someone who's going through a liquidity event, their startup just went public, there's a pretty high likelihood that they'll reach out to me. And if they do schedule a meeting with me, there's a pretty high likelihood that they already know that they want to work with me because of all the content that's already out there. And so for me, I am a firm believer in that you can't make someone want to hire a financial advisor. They have to be ready to hire a financial advisor, whether it be a life event or the new job or whatever the case may be. But what I do have control over is how often they see my name. And so if I'm writing a newsletter every day or every week, a blog every week, it's going straight to their inbox or they're on LinkedIn, they see my posts, it's about equity comp. The minute they hear like, Hey, my company's going public, I'm the first person they're going to reach out to. And so that is essentially how I've been able to grow my firm using that niche strategy. And of course there are disadvantages to that which we'll talk about, but for me it's been way more valuable than invaluable.
Tobias Salinger (16:32):
And what are some of those disadvantages? Start with you this time, Samuel.
Samuel Deane (16:36):
Yeah, I think when you start in the business, I started my firm from the ground up, hence the title of the session. No clients, no revenue, no anything. And I find that most of the advisors that I spoke to will say, take any client you can get because it's not really easy to come by. And while it was tempting, I had a long-term vision of what I wanted to build. Again, I knew I wanted to build a firm that was known for a very specific thing, and I didn't want to be a generalist. And so it was about getting front in front of the right people. And I think that can be a challenge when you have a niche firm, when you're not proximate to those group of people where you're sort of like an outsider and you have to find a way in. I think that could be the hardest part, figuring out what you want to specialize in, you know, want to specialize, but you don't know what you want to specialize in, could be another disadvantage. But I think if you have the right setup and you're patient enough, those disadvantages just sort of go away. At this point in my business, I'm been running my firm for five years now at this point in my business, I can't say that choosing a niche strategy has any disadvantages today. I think the disadvantages kind of stop once you build that reputation and you start to become known for a specific thing.
Tobias Salinger (18:00):
Anand.
Anand Sekhar (18:01):
Yeah, the one thing I'll introduce here is if you are an existing firm and then you're trying to pivot to do this, I think there's a bunch of challenges that emerge. So I'll tell you one of the most challenging ones is that one advisor has this idea and getting other advisors on board with the idea, because it means likely that you are going to market, you're going to put yourself out there on your website, you're going to put podcasts, blogging, so on and so forth. And the other advisors are like, all right. And then it becomes a change management issue altogether. And that is incredibly challenging internally to be able to get people on board with that. And I've seen that the firms that have decided to do that, they don't want to. And so one, this firm I referenced earlier, had 200 clients, they only had six dentists, and they decided to double down on dentists. What do they do? Kick out the a hundred other 194? No, they didn't. They still served them happily and served them well. The thing is, is that their marketing and everything else they want to focus on though, is now in a move forward strategy from a marketing. It doesn't mean they're not turning away clients, but the intentionality of it is really important. And I think, so I think change management is probably the biggest struggle. And then I think the other pieces is then being able to just navigate all the changes that need to come as a function of that technology, pricing, all the product opportunities, all of that that needs to then support this. How does that need to evolve your organization in addition to the talent piece? And you hit on it really well. Sam, you know, said it you, I think it's fair to say though, that talent is going to, even with chat GPT, AI, this is going to be a relationship based industry for quite some time. It is going to continue to be bionic. We're going to need to leverage technology to be more efficient. That said, it's going to need to have a human ultimately to deal with emotions. And that's going to be foundational. So it's not just you, but it's the team that you surround yourself around. Because at some point you'll get too large where you will need people around. You need to have good quality people. So I think that's really important too.
Tobias Salinger (20:07):
Really interesting stuff. And at this point, I did want to ask anyone in the audience, if you have questions, feel free to raise a hand, be on the lookout. I have a couple more here, but to be interactive if at all possible. To go back to you on, and I think this was a pretty interesting question that we were discussing as we got ready for the panel. How does your approach with centers of influence change with a niche strategy? Can you just define centers of influence first and then take us through that?
Anand Sekhar (20:43):
Absolutely. So historically, our industry has worked very closely with attorneys, all sorts of individuals that sort of compliment what you might do as an advisor. And the way I like to think about it is historically, even just the two I mentioned, accounts and attorneys are great. I think most advisors need to think about what problems are you trying to solve in the lives of the clients you're working with? And then what does that mean? Well, that means then therefore there has to be a wider set of potential centers of influence. So as an example, if you're working with a dentist or a doctor and their data gets hacked or held ransom, do you think they're really worried and concerned? You better believe it because of privacy and a whole lot of other things. So you should have probably on your speed dial a center of influence as a cybersecurity expert. So I think that's a good example of how you need to evolve to think about what are the needs that small business owner, that technology entrepreneur, whoever it is, has. And then think through what are all the different centers of influence that I need you to think that are beyond just accounts and attorneys, because I think those are over tapped, and I think there's actually another set of centers of influence that it can be more relevant for your specific niche that you're focused on.
Samuel Deane (21:55):
That's interesting. I actually never viewed it from that perspective. I've always viewed centers, centers of influence from a client acquisition perspective, but that is really helpful. I'm actually going to go think on that a little bit more. Sensors of influence, I think as you mentioned, accountants, attorneys and those sorts of things. But for me, I've never had a referral from an attorney or an accountant or anyone like that. And I think it's mainly because those other industries, from my experience, they don't really have niches. Everyone needs to file taxes. So a CPA is going to work with everyone, and you might find a few firms that only work with small business owners and so forth. But I haven't had much luck with those sorts of centers of influence. I would say clients have been a really good center of influence. That's like an untraditional center of influence. And so one of the ways in additional, in addition to content, how I've been able to grow my firm is speaking at these companies. So I have clients at Etsy and Google and Microsoft and so forth. Actually last week I had a call with someone I've never even spoke with before. He called me and said, Hey, I am such and such at Etsy. I run their employee resource groups. So a lot of tech companies have employee resource groups where they essentially provide resources for certain groups of people. So they could be a black employee resource group, they could be a LGBTQ, employee resource group, and so on and so forth. And so they frequently have events for people within that group. One of them is a financial workshop. And so I did a talk at Etsy in 2020 and this person reached out to me and said, Hey, one of your clients reached out to us and said, all the great work you've been doing with them, you're helping them buy a house. You're helping them use their RSUs to do the things that they want to do. We'd love for you to come in and talk to our clients. I mean to our employees, they offered to pay me to do that. And I said, no, I don't want to be paid. Why would I ask for payment to speak in front of 20 or 30 of my ideal demographic? Right? I'm sure it would be nice, but it's not needed. And quite frankly, I look better by saying, Hey, I want to do this out of the kindness of my heart, which I genuinely do. But I feel like that is a sense of influence that most people don't usually think of. To be able to do good work for clients and have that client bring you into their company to speak to their company, I think says volumes going to your point in terms of different types of centers or influence, I totally agree with you in terms of having different types of relationships. I had a client that reached out to me and said, Hey, I want to have a severance agreement with Facebook and I want someone to review the separation agreement to be able to call an employment attorney to talk to them about that. That's not necessarily a center of influence. It's not getting me more clients, but it's making me more valuable to my client. And so I think those are sensitive influence that we don't usually think about, but those relationships can really go a long way. And really just even things like a recruiter, I had someone talk to me about, Hey, I'm thinking about taking this offer over that offer. I want to negotiate, but I don't know where to start. I can help folks sort of navigate between more cash or more equity. But in terms of overall negotiations, don't, I'm not in the industry to kind of know the norms. My norms are going to be based off of what I see with my clients. And so to be able to say, Hey, here's a good friend of mine, he's a recruiter for big tech, he should be able to guide you in terms of letting the salary range for this type of role and so on and so forth. Those relationships go a really, really long way. And so to how you positioned it, I don't know that COI has to be someone that gets you more business, but it could be someone that just makes you more valuable to your client.
Anand Sekhar (26:00):
And if I can just build on that, it is rare that centers of influence, historically accounts attorneys are reciprocal. It is rare in our industry. What I will tell you is that the way I've been trying to reframe it for our industries to think about people that are just problem solvers along their journey with you, with your clients. Because 50% of historically, of new business development growth, organic growth comes from existing client referrals. To your point around for a company, perhaps a Etsy or whoever it is, 50% of it's in that population. So versus 25% from these traditional centers of influence. So I think one of the opportunities for us as advisors and people that are working with advisors is to help them realize, gosh, write down every single problem that you potentially could be solving for your clients. So great example, my mom had a stroke three years ago. We had to downsize her from a multiple level building townhouse to single floor living. It was a big financial question around selling a townhouse, a condo. Her and my dad lived in to single floor apartment living, and what could she afford? How could they afford it? So on and so forth. And then also all the complexities of independent living at their age. And that is, that's a huge need for a lot of people as they go through a health crisis. You think about it. Another one could be navigating honestly, the healthcare system. If it was not for my sister, who's a doctor in Atlanta who did all of our residency and fellowship up in Boston and helped us be the advocate, but we would've been lost, we needed an advocate, a patient advocate. That's another center of influence that I don't think that many advisors, because people will have quality of life issues. So in fact, we've come up with about 80 of these across all of these that advisors have found really helpful to help think through what are all those things, those decision moments in life that individual will go through, and then those experts, those trusted experts they need.
Tobias Salinger (27:59):
Great. We're almost out of time. I want to make sure and stay on schedule here this afternoon, but just to leave the audience with some tools, whether technology further reading, always a good one. What are some, just in a minute or so, Samuel, if you'll start this time, what are some other places they can check or some tech tools that could help them along the way as they think about a niche?
Samuel Deane (28:30):
I think as an advisor who I joke around all the time and say, I'm a chief product officer, because running your own firm means having to identify all the different pieces of technology that you need to move the needle. And as an advisor, that's not where our skillset is, but you sort of develop that over time. And so I think that the technology that you implement in your firm, I can't sit here and tell you, you need X, Y, and Z. You probably need trust and will, but I can't sit here and tell you need X, Y, and Z because every firm is different. Physicians need something very different than tech employees need. As an example, again, most of my clients have concentrated stock in private companies and public companies. I definitely need a tool that does tax planning, that includes RSUs, that includes stock option exercises. I want to know if I exercise my ISOs or in fact my client exercises, their ISOs, how does that impact them from a tax perspective without me having to go and loop in a CPA to provide that, right? And so that type of software is invaluable for me and my firm. I have younger clients who have held away crypto positions, and if I'm doing portfolio management for them, I need to know, well, hey, we need to rebalance. You need to trim some of your crypto allocation and we need to rebalance and so on and so forth. That is a tool that is pivotal for me because of my clients. Someone who's working with dentists or physicians won't need to do tax planning with RSUs. And so you can't have shiny object syndrome, which I kind of have, but you can't have shiny, shiny object syndrome and just wanting any and everything, you know, have to really evaluate the needs of your firm and the needs of your clients, and then find the best tech that solves that problem, not the other way around. And I think even me, in my early days, I would see certain things and say, oh, that's cool. I'm going to use that for my firm. And quite frankly, never used it. And I'm not going to go into any names. So I think that identifying your niche, designing and building a business model around that niche is super important. And that's more important than just having the fancy technology because at the end of the day, we have to do the job. The technology's not going to do the job for us. Another thing I kind of want to quickly touch on is pricing. I think Jason Wink was here earlier, this Jason, wink, founder of Altruist, was here earlier this morning kind of talking about the innovation landscape. And I think that as he mentioned as a wealth management industry, the output, we haven't really been innovative. We haven't really solved the financial inequities on a mass level. And so I think that even thinking about how does an u m business model serve your clients? My clients are all relatively young. If I were to look at them on an asset basis, let's say, and before they go through a liquidity event, they probably have about 50 grants of their name. You're not going to build a profitable firm if you're going to be traditional, if you're going to take the traditional AUM approach. And so even thinking about how does my business model fare with my ideal clients, how does my pricing align with my ideal clients? And so for me, instead of, we also have AUM, but in addition to AUM, we have a retainer, retainer service where instead of saying, Hey, you need a million dollar minimum, we'll say, Hey, your fee is $10,000. Same fee. If you charge a 1% on a million, it's $10,000. If I charge a $10,000 retainer fee, same dollar amount. But if I'm a software engineer at a pre IPO company, I probably have some savings where I can pay $10,000, but I don't have a million dollars for you to manage. And so just doing the user research, going out there and actually doing research on your ideal client, when I say I took a UX approach, I really did. I went to General Assembly, which is a coding bootcamp in New York City. And I went to their career outcome support, and I was talking to all of the up and coming software engineers about what their pain points were when they were getting, what were the things that they were experiencing. And I built my firm around that. That was the research that I used to figure out, okay, well these folks don't have AUM. And so really doing the research and building your firm from pricing to business model to service offering, like direct indexing is something that we offer our clients because they have a concentrated stock portfolio and they may have a heavy tech portfolio, so where we can accommodate that in a direct indexing portfolio. But that's very difficult to do with just ETFs. So really just doing the work and understanding what your clients' needs will give you all the information you need to know how to build and design your firm to work with that particular demographic.
Tobias Salinger (33:22):
Anand, closing thoughts to resources?
Anand Sekhar (33:25):
A few things. So I think CRMs a given. I think that, and the reason why it's a given is in order for you to, we talk about what's known as the four Cs, collect information about your clients, capture that information into a CRM system, capitalize on that information and do that all with compassion, right? And you can't do that unless you have a CRM. And I think the second one, my colleague Will Swans here from Catch light, wherever, Wil raise your hand. And I think it's, it is really cool, innovative AI fueled technology that helps you realize whether or not a prospect is actually going to be a good prospect. And it uses, I don't even know how many, too many data points, hundreds if not thousands of data points publicly available and some privately available to, in essence, score your prospects. I think that that kind of technology's really cool, and I think it can help and drive efficiencies from how you engage with who you should engage with. I think planning, you talked about planning, I think there's different ways to do planning. Obviously the likes of an e-money versus tax planning for your unique, but planning in general, you have to do that. And then if I could talk about pricing really briefly, I think that from a pricing perspective, charging a net worth is a good example of something that's creative that's not on AUM, that I've seen some firms do really successful. In addition to the hourly or retainer model, I think that is one that individuals may have homes, boats, artwork, whatever, but may not have liquid net worth and may not have a AUM. So I think that, and as you think about this niche, being relevant is the most important piece. And I think that's what we've, we've hopefully talked about today is that you need to understand the customer well enough to understand where are they today to then be able to design your services, offering pricing, so on and so forth.
Tobias Salinger (35:13):
Excellent. Anand Sekar, and Samuel Dean, Thank you so much.
Anand Sekhar (35:20):
Thank you.