On this week's special episode of the Financial Planning Podcast, George Nichols III explains why his understanding of legacy started years ago with a couple of important lessons from mom.
Nichols, the president and CEO of The American College of Financial Services, stopped by the podcast this week for part two of a three-part podcast series that Financial Planning is launching in May. The weekly series is focused on charitable giving and the role wealth managers play in helping the people they work with make an impact on communities and causes.
During his conversation with FP Podcast host and lead editorial producer Justin L. Mack, Nichols discussed becoming a chartered advisor in philanthropy; dove deep into estate planning topics like testamentary gifts; and stressed the importance of helping clients give back more efficiently.
Listen to the new episode — as well as to all future and past episodes — by subscribing to the FP Podcast on
Transcript:
Justin L. Mack (00:00):
This podcast is sponsored by ALSAC-/St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital.
Justin L. Mack (00:08):
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening. Welcome to the Financial Planning Podcast. I'm your host Justin L. Mack, wealthtech editor with Financial Planning. And now it's my pleasure to introduce this week's guest, George Nichols III, the president and CEO of The American College of Financial Services. George, thank you so much for joining us this week on a very special edition of the Financial Planning Podcast.
George Nichols III (00:31):
Justin, thank you for having me. I'm really excited, and excited that I can share with your listeners.
Justin L. Mack (00:36):
Absolutely. Now this week's show is part two of a three-part podcast series Financial planning is rolling out in the month of May. The series looks at the places where charitable giving and the wealth management industry intersect, and brings you conversations about how planners can provide clear pathways to help their clients give back and leave a legacy. And if you haven't after this episode, go back and check out part one, an episode we did with advisor Thomas Pontius out of Kayne Anderson Rudnick. Really great conversation.
And giving back and leaving a legacy? That's something that this week's guest is very passionate about, as we will learn. George Nichols became president and CEO of the American College of Financial Services in 2018 after living a life that blended private sector and public service experience. He spent 17 years with New York Life where he held principal roles in sales, strategic initiatives and public policy.
(01:25)
In 2006, George was named to the company's executive management committee … a group of senior execs tasked with assisting the CEO and setting company policy. He also served as executive vice president in the Office of Governmental Affairs. And before New York Life, he was the state of Kentucky's first Black insurance commissioner, leading regulation of the state's $10 billion insurance industry through his expertise in health insurance reform and financial services integration. So George has accomplished a lot, obviously, but he still wants to learn more and do more. That's why earlier this year he shared that he was furthering his commitment to philanthropy by becoming a chartered advisor in philanthropy through the college's CAP program. We'll talk about why he made that decision. Dive a little bit into estate planning topics like testamentary gifts and charitable trusts. Talk about the different ways clients can give. And discuss what it really means to live a legacy. But George, listeners know I love to start at the beginning of any story. It's the best place, right? What made you want to get into this job in the first place? What attracted you to financial services of all the things you could have done?
George Nichols III (02:32):
Well, one of the things I always tell people is that I grew up poor in a very racially segregated community. And at an early age, I wanted to tell myself that I could have a … people were not accepting me. Not because I was Black. Because I couldn't change that, but because I was poor. So at an early age I started figuring out, how do you make money? How do you get money? And how do people begin to be accepting of that? And from that learning experience, I'm like, I realize that financial issues are going to help me in terms of improving my life in terms of the stressors. And so that put me on a personal path that actually led logically to a professional path of getting in. As an insurance commissioner, I worked as an executive for a health plan. I served on the board of a bank, and I just found myself often times around the financial services space. I saw what advisors were doing for families and businesses and Isaid, you know what? I think that's something that I want to do.
Justin L. Mack (03:26):
Absolutely. So very much rooted in the ability to (say), how can I overcome this? Like you said, the state of wanting to change things and naturally how to help. And like you said, being able to face those things because you were poor and because you had without. Well, how do I make it? How do I help people understand it and navigate it? So obviously this topic of giving back and this decision to after all your years of experience, to take on a new challenge and take that CAP program, become a chartered advisor in philanthropy, why that decision? Why that choice and why would you put upon yourself more classwork — after years of not having to be in class, you chose to go back to school? I commend you. I'm not a fan of homework, so I don't know if I would do the same thing <laughs> but for you, what was the push?
George Nichols III (04:11):
So Justin, you're opening up old wounds that I had to talk to my wife about and talk to my assistant about trying to manage both of those and the job. So I only really appreciate you bringing that up. <Laughs> But the reason for me to do that is, just imagine. So I have this life where I'm trying to understand money and wealth and how you make it and what you do with it. But when my wife and I first got married over 39 years ago, we were giving then. But we didn't have a lot of money to give. It was really about giving our time and giving other treasures that we had. And because of that, because we always wanted to give back, because people had actually given to us. People had given us opportunities and shared things with us. So we said, how do we pass that on?
(04:55)
So we started early on in addition to what we would provide at our church or some of our community programs. But then when we were able to financially say that I could write a check in addition to giving my time, we then realized the real power of making a difference. So I'm walking this path of always wanting to give back because of what had been given to me, the blessings that I'd had. And then when I became the president and CEO, I said, you know what? You ought to walk the walk and talk the talk of what you're doing. So I said, I'm going to take one of our designations. And it was just so logical that the one thing that had been such a big part of my personal life, we actually had a professional designation for it. And so it was worth the extra work and homework to actually learn what we should be doing.
(05:44)
A lot of my professors ask me, what did you learn the most? Well, probably the most profound thing is that even all of the things that we had done, all the giving, we actually hadn't been efficient with it. We were giving the way we knew and it was helping people. We were giving money and time. But there are so many programs, as you've mentioned, that allow you to be more efficient and actually more impactful. And that's really what I got out of the program itself, which was worth millions to me in terms of where I'm going.
Justin L. Mack (06:19):
Absolutely. And I love how you kind of put it earlier, what you had been able to give that you mentioned you and your wife even before being able to contribute financially was your time and your other treasures. And I think that's important that we understand that our time is treasured and just being able to give that. And the time that you've given by taking the CAP course while also being involved in everything else, running the college, that is more time, more treasure, that you're putting into it. Hopefully jewels you'll pass on to other people, to clients, to other advisors who want to help. So really cool to hear you put it that way. And you can tell that it means a lot to you. And I know I opened old wounds earlier, so I'm going to go ahead and take one more swing. I'm going to do it again. I'm sorry. But I got to ask. But what was the toughest … was there anything in the coursework that stood out to you that was either really surprising. Either challenging or something new that you hadn't encountered that really made you step back and think about what else you could take and put into what you're doing as a leader of the college?
George Nichols III (07:14):
Yeah. Two things. The first thing was how education has changed from the time I went to college on my own and then now and actually taking an online class … we can do a better job of allowing people who've been out of school for a long time. This transition of, oh, there's a teacher standing in front of me and this is what I'm supposed to learn to doing it online and the interaction that you have, or lack thereof, sometimes in terms of a faculty member. That was probably the biggest experience of what I'm going through and how I had to adjust myself. The second thing was, the second course is about taxes. I hate taxes. I don't do my own taxes. All right. I hired somebody to do that. But then I got to take this course and they just keep talking about taxes and I'm like, oh my God, I'm not going to make it! <Laughs>
(08:02)
But what it actually taught me was something I don't think I really even appreciated in all my years at New York Life or being an insurance commissioner. The majority of the financial products that are offered in this country have tax implications. And you don't have to be an expert, but you do have to understand the taxable implications of financial products because it will either cost you or save you. And I think when we get into the discussions around different things that you can do, there is a tax benefit to those who are giving and contributing. And yeah, I knew it in its simplest terms. I did not know the real skills required and the deep knowledge that's necessary for a financial advisor to at least not be a tax expert, but to understand it so they can help you again, be efficient with your giving.
Justin L. Mack (08:53):
Absolutely. And to kind of follow up on that topic of efficiency, I imagine that's an important thing for advisors to be able to help clients with. Especially clients who may be working with a financial advisor for the first time, but they are charitably inclined because of how they came up and they knew that when, "I got to a place where I had enough to give, I was, one, going to be smart enough to have help someone help me with it." And I imagine, I think about myself, similar to you, didn't grow up with a ton of money and even when I finished college, I became a newspaper reporter. So even when I got a job, I didn't have a lot of money. I was a newspaper reporter. <Laughs> I'm just kidding. Shout out to all my old newsrooms. Love you guys.
(09:30)
But it's a real thing because it's the same way I came up. I knew I wanted to give when I got the chance to, but I didn't know how to do that. I figured, all right, find a group or organization I want to support, write a check. That's what you do. But as you know, that is not the only way you can give or maybe not the most efficient way to give. So talk to me a little bit about what are some efficient ways or some ways that advisors can help their clients give or ways that they can show their clients that they can give that are more efficient than just what we would usually do, which is just send some money or write a check. Or heck, now go online and press a button and donate. Help us out with that.
George Nichols III (10:06):
I think first of all, I think it is really important when I think about the average American, the average American does just write a check. So hey folks, keep writing those checks.
Justin L. Mack (10:16):
Absolutely.
George Nichols III (10:17):
So I really want you to keep doing that or keep pushing that button on the donation, that is. But I think that as we start looking at other things that we have, whether or not you have a life insurance policy and you want to add an organization as a beneficiary to your life insurance policy, that's a way for you to give into the future. There are ways that you can have charitable trust. That is, you create a legal trust where you put things into it, and there are different ways that you can handle a trust. You can have a trust that actually pays you a flow of money over a period of time. And at the end, and maybe it's the time you think you'll live, and then at some point in time in the future, whatever's remaining goes to the organization that you want to contribute to.
(11:01)
You can do a trust in the opposite direction where I'm putting assets into it. The organization gets a flow of money over a period of time, and at the end, that comes back to you and you can give it to your family or you can give it to another organization. There are ways for you to transfer stocks and securities that you have. There are all types. I think a lot of people use their IRAs — if I can use it and it's contributing to me living a longer life, but at the end of that, how do I transfer that? What we learned in this course and what financial advisors can do for you is, first, understand I'm writing a check today or I'm just donating online. But then they can say, well, let's evaluate all your assets. And then let's really evaluate more importantly, what impact do you want to have on society?
(11:51)
What impact do you want to have on your organization? And then by marrying those two, we can say, all right, we want to make sure you can live the life you want to live, and here's ways for you to take those assets, whatever they are, and make a contribution to the organization. I remember the first time, so my wife and I were getting ready to buy a new car. And we had an older car and I was like, I don't want to trade it in. I just know that when we trade it in, I'm not going to get anything for it. And then my advisor says, well, have you ever thought about donating it? And so the next thing I knew, I'm donating a vehicle for a family and actually the write-off and the value of that van was actually higher by me making that donation than what I would've got if I traded it in.
That's advisors talking to you about a variety of things. And the reason I use those examples is, so often when we read about giving back, it's rich people, the Bill Gateses of the world and these huge checks, but what really keeps our world going? What really keeps many of these organizations is the average American that says, you know what? I'm going to donate my van and they can fix the van and sell it, or I'm going to make them a beneficiary on my life insurance or they're going to get my IRA when I die. That's the power of what the average American does. And by working with an advisor, they can actually do more and be more impactful in terms of their giving.
Justin L. Mack (13:20):
Definitely. Just showing the wider scope of ways that you can give back and know that it's not as simple as I have to have this much or I won't be able to make an impact. I don't have enough to give. There's nothing I can do. No, there's a lot that we can do. And I think now more than ever, and I mean, to be candid, what we've experienced, just our way of life over the past three years has been transformed. And I think we see the value in those other treasures as you've put it, that we can use to give back and how advisors can play a really important role of letting people know what's available, how to do it in a way that works for them, how that does it in a way where, like you said, you can still live the life you want to live even if you're not the Bill Gateses of the world. But you can do all right and you can also do good. So I think it's really cool to be able to show the different scope and the different shades of giving that we can do now.
So with that, we're actually going to take a quick break and enjoy a word from our sponsors this week, but when we return, we're going to have a whole lot more with George Nichols III, president and CEO of The American College of Financial Services. Stay locked. We'll be right back after this break.
(14:21)
And welcome back to the Financial Planning Podcast. I'm your host, Justin Mack, and we're diving right back into our conversation with George Nichols III, president and CEO of The American College of Financial Services. Now, George, before the break, we talked a lot about your motivations for getting into the industry and then even after so many years of success and learning, you decided to learn more, take that CAP designation, become a chartered advisor through the college as far as philanthropic efforts. So, really cool, continuing that commitment. So we want to talk a little more technical now that you've got all this new know-how and years of legacy. <Laughs> Not going to put you on the spot. But we want to talk about another topic that you kind of touched on earlier, which is really important: estate planning. Leaving a legacy both while you're here and knowing that when you go you still want to continue to have that impact. But before that, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about what that means to you, what legacy means to you for you, what is that all about, and is it something that you've thought about recently, or does it date back to part of your upbringing like you mentioned as far as even what motivated you to get into the business?
George Nichols III (15:25):
This one goes way back. There's two things my mother taught me that have sort of been the theme of my whole life. The first thing she said to me. And so think about when I said I gotta go make money, Mom, because I want people to want to be around me. And I'm thinking it's just because I'm poor that they're not. My mother said, first, it is better to be known of good name than of great wealth. Now, that was to put in perspective that no matter how successful I was financially, it had nothing to do with the integrity of how I live and my values.
The second thing she told me is, and this one you got to remember forever, only what you do for others will last. So I was volunteering as a young kid wherever I could to help other people out because again, every time I looked around there was somebody helping me so I could continue that practice.
(16:25)
So when I think about a legacy, and this is a legacy that my wife has embraced as well, how do we take all of the blessings that we've received, and we've received so many, and share them with others so that they can have blessings of which they can share? Now, oftentimes I believe people think of legacy as, can I have my name on that building? Well, where I come from, that building can be torn down or could catch fire. But just imagine the legacy of you doing for others. They know you did for them and they pass it on. Then all of a sudden your legacy keeps living. They may not remember your name when we get down generations. But your legacy, the impact of it is continuously living. And so my wife and I said, everything that we have, we want to take care of our children and we'll transfer wealth to them. But a lot of what we've got, we're giving it away because we believe that we've had all these blessings and our job and our desire for our own legacy is to help others. And you know what? There are people that help me. I don't know their names, I never even knew what they looked like, but I know they were there and we want to be the same
Justin L. Mack (17:48):
Well said. And with that, and I imagine too, coming up as a young kid who already had that spirit of giving passed down and taught to you by your mother, I imagine you kind of already talked about that. That's something you want to continue throughout your life and even in the years after that legacy. People may not know you or have a chance to ever meet you, but a decision you might have made, maybe with the help of somebody who showed you the best way to do it might make an impact in someone's life years from now. Really important stuff that I know means a lot to people. So let's talk about that topic of estate planning, and I know that's an important business topic for advisors as well because it's a great opportunity for growth. It's a great business opportunity to be frank. It's important to a lot of people. What am I doing? How can I give, what can I do beyond that? Writing the checks, which like we said, the checks don't hurt. Feel free to keep writing them. Talk to me about some estate planning options like you mentioned earlier, earlier, charitable trust, testamentary gifts, life insurance opportunities. There's so many different ways to do it. What are some of the ways that advisors should be mindful of and they might be able to help their clients with?
George Nichols III (18:50):
Okay, so just remember when you think about estate planning, let's get the basics in there. Let's make sure that there's a wheel that documents some of the things that you want. We got to make sure there's some legal implications that are addressed here so that we, again, because we're thinking of efficiency, we're saying that I don't want you to have to pay a bunch of taxes or I don't want you to have to go to probate when you die. Because we're not going to get to what your desires are of your legacy. So first, let's address the legal components of t, do you have a medical directive? Are you giving a power of attorney to certain people? So let's get those basics out of the way. Then it's an evaluation of really what your assets are. So let's talk about all of that.
(19:33)
And I'm doing this on purpose —let's address all the legal ramifications. Let's then talk about what your assets are. And then let's talk about the most important part of an estate plan that actually is not the technical part, and that is what do you want to do? What is the legacy that you want to live? Because once I understand that, then we can talk about your financial assets and say, how do we make them work in the most efficient way for you to achieve that? If you were able to come back to Earth and say, yep, I did exactly what I wanted to do. When we get those assets, we're going to look at what your life insurance policies are. We're going to look at, do you have annuities? We're going to look at, do you have an IRA or a pension plan that you're involved in?
(20:16)
We're going to look at, do you own property? We're going to look at, do you own art? Your automobiles? We're going to try to do a comprehensive approach. Then we want to understand what tax bracket are you in? Are there ways for us to restructure your financial portfolio right now to make sure that, one, we're making sure of the tax efficiency while you live and the tax efficiency we want to give. One of the things that I don't think most people understand, and this was again one of those "aha" moments for me going through the CAP program, do you have a donor-advised fund? Now, when I first heard of a donor-advised fund, I thought that was for rich people until I found out you could have as little as $25. And basically what it does is, some of us may not be so smart at investing our money, but you could go to a donor-advised fund from major companies, Schwab, Fidelity, Vanguard, and you can put money in and you can actually share with them where you want that money to go, but they actually invest it for you and they're probably a little better than most of us at investing.
(21:22)
So they can invest it for you, but it grows. Now just imagine if you're investing money and you can get a higher return, you can have a higher impact. So what we're trying to do when we're sitting in this conversation is understanding all of your assets, all the way they're structured today, and then we are going to go in and we're going to say, let's look at them in a better way. I remember when we were doing our own program, I wanted to leave a million dollars to my university. And I was like, well, here's all my assets and after the life insurance and we can do this. And he says, well, what if you decided, George, to have a foundation and then we can put a trust within the foundation? You buy a life insurance policy, you pay it up for a million dollars and you make a university the beneficiary.
(22:13)
Actually, the easiest way for us to do it is, I now get the benefit of writing a check for the policy value. Okay, that's a deduction for me on my taxes today. Nowhere near a million dollars, but at the end of my life there's a million dollars going to the university and I've actually been able to get a write off. That's what advisors do — they look at all of those things and whether it's a charitable trust again that I talked about, one that actually sets up the benefit for you, a lead trust where the money goes to an organization and then all the money comes back to you at some point in time, or a remainder trust where we're sitting in a situation where all the money goes to you, it goes to them early on and then comes back to you. However it's structured, these are the things that a financial advisor can do. And it's all packaged within what we would call an estate plan, but always remember there are the very basics that we have to do.
(23:12)
And then, based on your financial situation, that will determine how complicated and sophisticated the estate plan will be in terms of how we're going to leave your legacy. Let me add one last point really quick. If you have kids, I would ask people to get your children involved in the planning of your estate plan. Don't let your kids have to deal with your death and then figure out what you wanted and you didn't tell them. So if you are putting together an estate plan, you can do all of the work yourself with your advisor. But once it's complete, sit down with your kids and let them know, this is what we were trying to do and this is what we would hope you would consider continuing to do when we're gone. And we did that with our children.
(24:07)
And I remember when we told them how much money was going to be there, they looked at us and my advisor said, are you sure you want them to know? And I'm like, well, I don't think they're going to kill us, so I think we're safe. But I said, here's the thing. Here's the emotional component of this whole business. Why would I have our kids deal with the loss of their mother and father and then get shocked with some dollar amount that they had no idea was coming? Where this situation is, all they have to do is deal with the loss of their mother and father, and everything else is already planned. And they've had an opportunity to participate and understand, after they get over the loss, what it is we want to be related to that legacy.
Justin L. Mack (24:51):
Absolutely. To kind of follow up on that too, I know that like you said, the emotional aspect of the decision should not be overlooked. It is one that no matter which end of the spectrum you're on, I imagine it's deeply personal because if you do have a whole lot of money to give, you want to make sure that it's being handled correctly, efficiently — like you said, in a way that actually makes the impact that you want to make. And if you don't have a lot, you still want to give and you want to make sure that whatever treasures you have to share are being put into motion for similar reasons. So no matter who you are, no one's going to be "set it and forget it" when it comes to this — you're talking hands-on engaged. Any advice for advisors who are navigating that emotional part of it? Whether it be having a conversation with your client to share what you just shared with me, which hey, let your kids know. Let whoever in your life and your orbit needs to know, let them know. But I know that not everybody might be open to that. And similarly, working with kids, say you're an advisor, someone passes, now you're working with their children, at least through this part of it, and maybe to hopefully continue that relationship, but maybe you just have to be here for these children at this moment. That's tough. Any tips for navigating that emotional part of it?
George Nichols III (25:59):
One of the things that the American College Fellow services wants to do is, we've got to do a better job on this topic right here, which I would call behavioral finance. And it's really all about the relationships and understanding people's behaviors and their views and perspectives. And we do a little bit of it. I just don't think we do enough. But I tell advisors all the time that the money is what the money is. And I can find, I mean, I could actually go to a robo-advisor and I could put all of it in and I can get something kicked out to me. So then you've got to understand where's the real value that you bring? Well, the real value you bring is helping someone figure out their why. I mean, that's the part all of us are still struggling with. I know the legacy that I want, but I'm telling you, every time I hear about a great program or something else, I'm thinking, oh, should I go and do that?
(26:54)
Because I'm trying to understand my why. And so my advice to advisors is, if you are walking in the door and all you're worried about is a financial transaction, you're not serving them well. Because it is really about understanding the why. And then how do you take the financial components and help them get to the why? That's the real satisfaction … and I'll say that and someone will say like, "yeah, I got that George." I say, let me give you some stats. All right, let's just start with women. $30 trillion, with a T, $30 trillion will transfer to women over the next eight to 10 years as a result of the death of their husband. $30 trillion, okay? Research shows that 80% of the women who receive the transfer of wealth change advisors in the first year.
(27:55)
And the reason is because for all those years you've been part of our family, you only talked to my husband. And now you think I'm going to talk to you about everything that now sits in my control. That's real money now. Now we're talking about impacting an advisor, and that's why we tell them that building that relationship, understanding the why, not just to who you define to be the breadwinner. But unless they're not leaving it to the next person, you've got to make sure you understand everybody's why. You've got to be able to build those relationships with them or that they feel like you care about them. Not just their money, not just their assets, but helping them get to that place where I can sit back and say, I did what my mother asked me to do, and that was, I thought about what I was doing for others.
Justin L. Mack (28:49):
Well said. And with that, we're going to actually transition as we wrap up and get to the end of our conversation this week. A great conversation. Thank you so much again for joining us, George. We're going to slide into something that has become customary here on the Financial Planning Podcast, which is ending with some good vibes. And we talked a lot about what got you into this business, what you've accomplished while you've been in it, what you've sought to learn even after all these years, the legacy and the impact you hope to make even years, years long into the future. So with all that considered, I got to ask you, what do you love most about your job? What do you love most about your work? What keeps you coming back? Even though I sit here and open up old wounds about homework and talk about all of that, what makes you love what you do so much? And I think it's evident to anyone who's listening, the passion is palpable. I know they can tell you love it. So what is it?
George Nichols III (29:35):
It is the fact that by providing applied financial knowledge to financial advisors, and now moving in the space where we want to take some of our knowledge and share it with consumers, every day I walk on the street, I know the people that I'm helping. If I can help people make better financial decisions for themselves, that's the most powerful thing. Because I'm not doing social justice reform. I'm not doing criminal justice. I'm not doing health. All we're doing is, if we can help you make better financial decisions and reduce that stressor, then it gives you more energy to deal with the other stresses of life. And when I think about our organization that's been around for 96 years, and we can take all that knowledge and keep educating advisors and now create programs that go directly to consumers to help them make better financial decisions. When Dr. Huebner created the American College in 1927, he said, "for the benefit of society." I'm like, wow, we're now living his legacy, and we're doing it in today's terms. And it fits in perfectly with what I've always loved. It's always about the people and how do I help the people be better?
Justin L. Mack (30:53):
Absolutely. Well said. And I don't think we can end any better than that. So George, I want to thank you again for sharing your time and your passion on this week's episode of the Financial Planning Podcast. Thank you so much.
George Nichols III (31:03):
Thank you, Justin.
Justin L. Mack (31:04):
All right. And I want to thank everyone for listening to the Financial Planning Podcast. This episode was produced by Arizent with audio production by Kevin Parise. Special thanks again to our guest, George Nichols III, President and CEO of The American College of Financial Services. Rate us, review us and subscribe to all of our content at
This podcast is sponsored by St. Jude Children's Research Hospital. Information shared in this podcast is intended for educational purposes only and does not replace independent professional advice or judgement. The statements of fact and opinions expressed herein are those of the authors and, unless expressly states to the contrary, are not the opinion or position of the sponsor or any member of the sponsor organization.